Anti-Neocons

In the past I have listed dozens of these and I thi kit is overwhelming so I will just put this one quote down for people to see how disgusting the Torrah and Old Testament are.

Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)

Now obviously Christians and Jews don't approve of this, just goes to show how few of them actually read their texts.

_________________
This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-dealcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
My Twitter
"It doesn't matter who we are underneath. It is what we do that defines us." Batman

Booga booga Iran... Meanwhile Israel secretly built hundred of nukes using technology stolen from the US. Everyone knows it and no one does anything about it.

Google version of War by Deception (Magic Bunnies)
Pass HR 1207 and S604 audit the Fed



ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you

anti-neocons.com or should it be anti-bible.com?

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

I really don't see how pointing out an obsolete passage from the Bible proves that nobody reads. I will repost my response to your 'dozens' of posts from passages taken out of context and reworded to fit your anti-bible rants.

Ry, the meaning of these scriptures, especially the word slave, is critical to understanding this controversy. For example, in the King James version, the most widely used version in the 1700 and 1800s in America when slavery existed, the word slave was used only once (Jer 2:14), and the word slaves also was used only once (Rev 18:13). Conversely, servant, servants, and other similar words were used almost a thousand times. Therefore, the question “Does the Bible condone slavery” first requires defining the word slave.

"Slavery" in the Bible is actually an ancient form of indentured servitude. Basically, an indentured servant is someone who does services like manual labor or something else in exchange for food and shelter, provided by the master. Slavery is not necessary now as it was then. Times have changed just a little in the two or three thousand years since the Old and New Testament days.
Saying that “God gave guidelines on the treatment of slaves" does not prove that there should be slaves. Slaves WERE a necessary evil which we can definitely live without. The guidelines, when they were used, helped to ease the inhumanity of being a slave. We have rules for war, but that does not make warfare a necessity.
Simply put, life was definitely not as simple as it is today. The Hebrews back then lived "hand-to-mouth". They didn't work for profit, they worked to survive. But an indentured servant was GUARANTEED food and a home, in exchange for doing work. This may have been the most fair and humane option for a family.

It is true that Slavery was an accepted practice in biblical times by many cultures not just Hebrews and later Christians (as well as many cultures thereafter). The greater question is Does God approve of Slavery? Consider Paul in his letter to Philemon about his slave (and brother in Christ) Onesimus. Paul simply put, did not promote slavery.

The argument that the bible condones and promotes slavery has been used before. It was used by people of the seceded south to justify their use of slaves. Now I’m sure you wouldn’t want to use the same argument that the bible condones slavery as these bigots right Ry?
The truth is that in Christianity, God created all humans as equal; none is superior to another.

It’s funny you say that “There are thousands of religions there is only one atheism”. The truth is that many atheists hold many variations on their beliefs just as many monotheistic religions also do. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all worship the same God but obviously there are many differences to their religions. The same is true among atheists. They don’t all believe exactly the same as you state. For example there are some that believe in evolution where as others hold other beliefs that involve extra terrestrials as well as other variations on human origins.



Regarding homosexuality in the bible your misquotes didn’t help your argument. 1 Timothy verses 9-10 say this:

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.”
This in no way makes mention to homosexuality.

Again misquoting the bible in another one of your quotes.
1 Corinthians versus 6-10 says the following:

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

By replacing certain words with homosexual it doesn’t help your argument.

Even if the bible did not approve of homosexuality, which I believe is false, it doesn’t state anywhere that we should hate these people. Everyone deserves God’s love according to the bible and ‘gay-bashing’, hating or treating a homosexual less than human is NEVER made mention of in the bible.

Finally regarding the ‘Divine Right of Kings’;

In the Epistle to the Romans, chapter 13, Paul wrote that earthly rulers, even though they may not be Christians, have been appointed by God to their places of power for the purpose of punishing evildoers. Some Biblical scholars believe that Paul was writing, in part, to reassure the Roman authorities who ruled his world that the Christian movement was not subversive. This simply means that Paul didn’t want to make the Christian movement seem like it was going to overthrow the Government. The difficulty posed for later Christians is that the New Testament contained no explicit plan for the government of a mostly Christian society. This is why you won't find that we should have a Republic and vote and that Kings are just ordinary men. It assumed that Christians would always be a minority in a pagan world, and its political counsel was limited mostly to advising members to obey the law and stay out of the way of pagan government. In the western world it came to be associated with Roman Catholicism and other Christian faiths in the Reformation period. The notion of divine right of kings was certainly in existence in the medieval period, however it was in the early modern era, under the ancient régime, that the notion became extensively used as a primarily political mechanism, i.e. for increasing the power of kings within centralized monarchies relative to their nobles and subjects. It was given its most comprehensive formulations by the French bishop Bossuet and King James I of England, but it owes much to the earlier writings of Augustine of Hippo and Paul of Tarsus. Again, the twisting of the Bible for personal and political gain. Happened then, happens now.

Please understand that the essence of Christianity is forgivness and love. Most importantly remember that some things were put in the Bible to show us how NOT to act and some things were put in the Bible to show us how we SHOULD act. With each are also shown consequences and rewards, be it negative or positive. I hope this helps clear things up for you.

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

doent this go to the religion section?

_________________
Men's Almanac

Gamer Nation


"Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of ... [Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness], it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government." –Thomas Jefferson

buddy it is not taken out of context as you claim. The Christian kingdoms openly practised slavery for 1800 years and so did the Jews. We have close to 2000 years of history to prove they damn well meant and practiced slavery.



That is bullshit the word slaves is used way more than one time and I can show it to you in a KJV Bible.



This is also crap. The Persians didn't have slaves in fact that is who freed the Hebrew slaves from Egypt/Babylon. Or excuse me the Hebrew "indentured servants". Yeh it was Cyrus the second not God.
Aslo guess who spoke out against slavery at this same time 5,000 years ago....Buddah.

First of all they had both cattle slaves and indentured servents both of which are wrong. No one should Sell his daughter for anything. The Jewish armies were openly instructed to rape captives and inslave people.



Yes The OLD Testament god (Judaism) approves of Slavery as 2 of the Ten Commandments mention it and the next chapter Ex 21:20 gives instructions on how you are to hard you are allowed to beat them when they disobey you. Paul was not even born. Paul had a slave that is bad enough then he wanted to have him recieved as a brother in particular because he loved him. So what. The guy who wrote the majority of the NT was a slave owner and many bishops think also a homosexual. He never stated we should free all slaves or its an evil institution. But Peter and Timothy and other NT writers sure did promote slavery. And Paul Practised it.



I am not using that arguement because I say the bible is crap. Yes it DOES say those things but who cares the Bible is bullsht. It also has talking animals and an man with magic hair and stupid stories about contests with sorcerors and askes people to hunt down witches. It has a Earth centered solar system and a long list of scientific contradiction including a ridiculous creation story.

_________________
This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-dealcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
My Twitter
"It doesn't matter who we are underneath. It is what we do that defines us." Batman

Booga booga Iran... Meanwhile Israel secretly built hundred of nukes using technology stolen from the US. Everyone knows it and no one does anything about it.

Google version of War by Deception (Magic Bunnies)
Pass HR 1207 and S604 audit the Fed



ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you

You sure have one fucked up view of Christianity; were you raped by a professor at your religious school or something? I'll reply to your once again 'off base' comments once I get the time. Ry, I agree with your political views but your twisted version of Christianity makes me think twice about the rest of your posts, no offense.

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

Also, you make many comments regarding who owned slaved as well as other 'facts' you are claiming. Would you please do everyone a favor and back them up with respectable proof and not just throw out random comments and say they are fact? This does nothing but create a false sense of knowledge based on fallacies.

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

Once again, I am glad I am not alone. The anti religion posts are contradicting the anti-neocon posts. People get c aught up in being anti-religoin that they confuse the two. I am two Makers Mark and Tres Generaciones into the wind so bare with me. I just think the lack of focus is losing leadership. You can be atheist, but expressing it at all times is just going to inhibit your ability to attract the minds of those who are not atheist which is a great majority of humans on this earth. If you truly believe in your cause you would find a distinction between the religion and politics and pursue it. I hope I am being clear, but I doubt it. Ithink people will get the gist. Seperation of church and state is stressed for a reason, yet it is a continued abuse within this forum. You can still be anti-church, but expressing such is no different than being prochurch. It is just a polar opposite and being such is counterproductive to the cause of being anti-neoconservative. If you promote your anti-religion it is simply turnign away those who are pro-religion, which is a great majority. I doubt I am being clear, but I imagine I have been in the past and continue to be ignored. Boys will be boys. Regardeless, I love you man. Peace....Two shots in the wind...

_________________


"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and
opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those
who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible
government which is the true ruling power of our country." Edward Bernays

Hey open eyes Pauls own letter by your own words admits Paul had a slave.



I have never re-worded anything. I take quotes right from the Bible. Back your claims up. Show me a bible quote I used that is not in the Bible. You can't because I don't reword things. You are assuming I have because you can't believe what the Bible says since obviously you haven't read it. It's not like I am picking sentence either I can give you the entire paragraph or the whole chapter if you like.

You ever read Leviticus? You want to read the longest book I know of still in circulation that details how to sacrifice animals?


No shit you should have a look, Chapter 3 is a good one.

Here is some of the sickening stuff from your KJB

wow that's sounds like some interesting intellectual stuff there how to properly cut up and burn animals for God.

If you try to talk about the Bible with me I will own you.

You have not responded to any of my post on Bible passages. And it is you who has to re-word them to make them fit what you mean. I don't hold this view of Christanity. My parents and like 89% people I know are Christians and they don't believe in 98% of the shit in the Bible because they don't even read it. I am pointing out what the Bible actually says.





You obviously don't have anything to say or you are waitng to ask a preacher what to do. The Bible clearly advocates slavery and Christian Kingdoms practised it until the kingdoms were over thrown. It doesn't matter if other societies asl had slaves such as the Chinese or Africans for example. That does not excuse the supposed word of an all knowing god from not knowing slavery was wrong.

You just can not say they only meant indentured servents when they had slaves for nearly two thousand years and even the main author on the New Testamanet by his and your own words had at least one slave, even though he asked that he be recieved as a brother he still owned another human being. Not to mention all the problems with homosexuality and science ect. NIce of you to assume I must have raped by a preacher in order to have a rational view of what the Bible says. That's calling avoiding the argument. I actually coverted my preacher to Atheism and he quit his job. My entire dorm became non-theist. You know why/how? I made people who tried to argue with me read the bible.

Corey has a good point in that how does this relate to neocons. I put this here because the Church and State section was being ignored. For about one year now I have had up the Why I am not a Christian thread with no rebuttles.

A good Christian either ignores the Bible, had it selectively read to them as a child, or they have to spin nearly everything crazy it says into whatever is currently acceptable in their society.

The reason it matters is simple. Christianity finances the occupation of Palestine more than the government does and that is a fact.

It is also further proof of conspiracy theories and brain washing. If yu can get people to believe in absudities you can get them to commit atrocities.

The best you can do is try to slander me and say things about me, you can not defend what the Bible says or what you think it "meant" when we have such a long history of what christians actually did.

The belief in witches led to young women being killed. Yes the Bible has magical people in it. It also says to kill them .

Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

don't forget Moses having a contest with the Egyptain wizards who could turn staffs into snakes.

_________________
This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-dealcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
My Twitter
"It doesn't matter who we are underneath. It is what we do that defines us." Batman

Booga booga Iran... Meanwhile Israel secretly built hundred of nukes using technology stolen from the US. Everyone knows it and no one does anything about it.

Google version of War by Deception (Magic Bunnies)
Pass HR 1207 and S604 audit the Fed



ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you

Opened Eyes, why are you getting offended. Ry makes general criticism of religion, I'm sure he despises Judaism and Islam just as much - so what it's his opinion! As a muslim there is much people can tell me about the barbarity of my religion, but I won't get offended because I know my belief in G-d. But you don't need to get personal by saying Ry got raped by a college professor.

_________________
I got your number Nasser....

From Rook Hawkins at the RRS:



This is a logical fallacy here. Aside from straw-manning the anti-bible thing, the contradictions in the Bible span thousands. Some in clumps of 10-14 verses, and all are within the context of the passage.



Really? In the KJV? The one version of the Bible which has undergone more changes and additions and "corrections" to problems then any other version in the entire history of versions of the bible! Let's take a look at the greek, shall we?
One claim at a time. First, the most obvious, is your notion that "slave" is not used but once in the entire KJV, when in fact, the Greek shows something quite different. (Let me guess, you just went on Bible Gateway and did a word search and it turned up two verses, right? Typical non-learned Christian.)

Paul, for example, calls himself a slave to Christ many times over in his epistles. Romans 1:1, for example, although the doctored Greek translations say "servant", save the word in Greek is doulos or δουλος. The word means, literally, slave or born bondsman. The word appears in other works as well as the Bible, for example in the play by Aeschylus, Agamemnon, no doubt about the tragedy of Troy, δουλος is used in this passage:

• Yet once more I would like to speak, but not a dirge. I pray to the sun, in presence of his latest light, that my enemies2 may at the same time pay to my avengers a bloody penalty for [1325] slaughtering a slave, an easy prey. Alas for human fortune! When prosperous, a mere shadow can overturn it3 ; if misfortune strikes, the dash of a wet sponge blots out the drawing. [1330] And this last I deem far more pitiable than that.

This is just one case where the term is evidence for the literal connotation. The problem with the KJV, and many of the newer versions of the Bible, like the NIV, are explained by McDowell and Stuart:

McDowell and Stewart are willing to concede on pages 50-52 of their book entitled Reasons Skeptics Should Consider Christianity.

• "The publication of the KJV of 1611 did not mark the end of new translations of the Bible. Sixteen years after the release of the Authorized Version (KJV), a 5th century Greek manuscript (Codex Alexandrinus) was brought to England. This manuscript was centuries closer in time to the writing of the NT than the handful of manuscripts used to translate the KJV. Moreover, the Greek Codex Alexandrinus was different in certain respects than the text which was used to translate the KJV.
  
  During the next two and one half centuries, a great number of other new manuscripts were discovered, some dating as early as the middle of the 4th century (Codex Vaticanus, A.D. 325; Codex Siniaticus, A.D. 350).
  
  With these discoveries and a refining of the science of textual criticism, it was inevitable, and even desirable, that voices would cry out for a revision of the KJV.
  
  The purpose of the revision committee was revealed in a report submitted on May 3, 1870 by the Canterbury Committee.... 1. That it is decided that a revision of the KJV of the Holy Scriptures be undertaken.... 3. That in the above resolutions we do not contemplate any new translation of the Bible, or any alteration of the language, except when in the judgment of the most competent scholars such change is necessary....Any changes from the King James were to be done only when absolutely necessary....If such evidence warranted a change, the approval of at least two-thirds of the revisers was required before it would be incorporated into the text. The actual number of changes far exceeded the original expectations of the committee, but most of the numerous changes were merely grammatical (i.e., word order, sentence structure)....
  
  The great value of the RV is that it set a precedent for further translations which could incorporate the latest manuscript and linguistic and historical evidence into their versions.
  Regarding the NASB they say on page 71, "...the translators of the NASB attempted to bring the American Standard Version up to date, to be as faithful to the original languages as possible, and to present a clear and readable style...."

In fact the above proves that later versions were not only refined and redefined to correct major flaws and to modernize language, the fact that only minor word changes and sentence structure changes occurred speaks volumes of the KJV’s reliability. So trying to suggest that the word “slave” might have been a copyist error (which I am going to assume that somebody will try and bring that up next) is simply fraudulent. Even after 300 years of manuscript findings, the very little corrections that was required to be made, and the fact that very little had to do with the translation itself, suggests that the KJV was the closest it could get in terms of translation from the start!

Although with new committees redefining the translations again, newer copies of the KJV have also been corrected to modernize and reflect the many “unlikable” and “negative” words and phrases in the Bible. Works like “kill” became “murder” and “slave” became “servant.” But the Greek doesn’t lie, and when one goes back to the Greek, one clearly can see the issue with trying to change around the words – in effect to make the Bible say what it doesn’t say – just to appease the population. That is exactly what has been done here.

To continue on point, Leviticus 25:39 talks about slavery as well, from the Hebrew phrase `abodah ‘ebed or the whole verse in Hebrew:

• לט וכי ימוך אחיך עמך ונמכר לך--לא תעבד בו עבדת עבד
  OR
• 'If your brother has grown poor among you, and sells himself to you; you shall not make him to serve as a slave.

“Serve as a slave” is the phrase I pointed to above, the phrase is very literal, meaning that one serves in bondage as a bondsman. It’s a nice way of saying slave, but calling a pot a kettle is not changing the physical and evident structure of the actual pot, it’s really just semantics. A pot is a pot regardless of it’s name, and a spade is a spade regardless.

In the end, the nature of Leviticus 25 is ripe with slave references, and the Hebrew reveals as much. 'Amah or “female slave” is used repeatedly between verses 44 and 55. Leviticus even states that these very 'amah and ‘ebed are your property, for that you have purchased, as described in verse 45, “Moreover of the children of the strangers who sojourn among you, of them you may buy, and of their families who are with you, which they have conceived in your land; and they will be your property.”

These are but a few examples of slavery being ever-present in the Bible. I could give you laundry lists, if you really want to keep debating me on this issue.

The main point of this is that the Bible condones such action, and Jesus doesn't lift one finger to end it, in fact he speaks favorably about slavery in a parable. (Luke 14:17) Here δουλον is used again. It's continually used, and refers explicitly to slavery. The act in which a human being is held as property in bondage to do the will of another human being.

It's an inhumane act, and the Bible allows it. This is the point at hand. The fact that you ignorantly thought it was non-existant is only evidence to how little you know about the Bible, and although it was fun showing you where you err, you should realize this is irrelevant.

As made clear, the Bible clearly is accepting of acts such as slavery. "If a man strikes his servant or his maid with a rod, and he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he gets up after a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his property." (Ex. 21:20-21) (Before you ask, the word is 'ebed - note how here the translators decided to use "servant" instead of "slave" this time? This is just one example of how the translators play with the greek and the hebrew. This hebrew word still means slave, but they *tweak* the word in english becaus english is such a sloppy language, they can get away with it. The Hebrew and Greek, however, aren't so forgiving.)

God commands, a few times, for people (female virgins) to be taken as slaves and war plunder! (Num. 31:31-36) Where is the justice? Where is the love?

The word is already defined. YOU just don’t like the way it is defined, and seek to, like others have, change what the Bible says to better suit your opinions of what you THINK the bible SHOULD say. The fact is, however, the Bible is very clear on slavery and on how a slave should be treated. The fact is, that the Bible allows it at all is enough reason to put the book down and disregard it as the work of a loving God. Because no loving, just God would ever allow it.



So it’s okay to beat them close to death, but because they’re property, we can’t kill them? So whipping them every day, three times a day is okay, as long as they don’t die from it? These are the guidelines your Bible tells us is okay. The verse is mentioned above. Stop lying and trying to sugar-coat reality, I’m smarter then you.



But the fact is, slavery existed and the Bible, supposedly a book that contains some sort of moral authority, condones it! The Bible also has rules for women being made war plunder, by order from God, and the Bible also tells us to kill all those who are not of our faith. Heck, you really want to go this route? Let’s go all out, then. Here’s a list of verses that we should all follow (God commands you!) for the betterment of our society. This is in your perfect book, in your moral authority!

Leviticus 20:9, "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." Couldn't we try like, spanking the kid first? How about that?

Leviticus 24:16, "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." (Little bit of an ego problem there, god?)

In Numbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, God shows us how hospitable he is when he says "The stranger that cometh nigh (to a specific event mentioned - ed) shall be put to death."

Numbers 5:2-4, "Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell. And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel." What ever happened to trying to help the sick instead of just abandoning them to the wild? One can only imagine the heartbreak of having to expell your own mother or father, grandfather or favorite aunt and unlc esimply because they are sick, and watching them wander off without help from the world, and all because god says so.

Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." One can only imagine what it would be like to be hauled away for a bank robbery your great great great grandfather did generations ago. ...Wait a tic, wasn't there something about children not being held accountable for their fathers crimes somewhere in the old testament as well? Ah right, here it is: Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Well this is just darn confusing!

The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. Numbers 15:32-36, "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses." And most of us drive daily on saturdays (and sundays). Poor guy, too bad he wasn't born just a few thousand years later, when people didn't kill somebody because they thought some ancient words in a holy book told them so....we don't believe in a jealous god anymore that demands an entire nation of people to be exterminated and destroyed along with all of their religious symbols and possessions. (Num. 33:50-52)

Oh, right. Heh, I guess I was wrong. We still do that!

• 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
• 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]
• Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
  From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
• By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]
• Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
  In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
• In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
  Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
  The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
  
  "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
  
  Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of Buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
  To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.
• In 1994 in the small African country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
  For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
  Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
  
  "Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
  According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
  In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
  
  More recently the BBC aired:
  
  Priests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide
  BBC NEWS April 19, 1998
  
  A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994...

I guess it's true what the Bible says, "All nations shall be terrorized by the followers of Yahweh." (Deut. 2:25) I guess they were all just following God's example. Because remember: If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you. (Deut. 6:15) And God will kill those who hate him. (Deut. 7:10) After all, we are commanded by God to Kill those of other faiths. (Deut. 12:30, 17:2-7)

And of course, if your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." (Deut. 13:6-10)

If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. Watch out Salt Lake, Seatle and countless other cities all across the world who aren't of a Christian sect! (And even if you are, be careful...after all, if you follow a different version of Christianity, you can still be targets from other Christians!) (Deut. 13:12-16)

Oh, and I have more things we should apply to real life use.

We should kill people who murmur, like God threatens to do. [To which the people reply, "Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish .... Shall we be consumed with dying?" (Numbers 17:12-13)]

It's unfortunate that we cannot harden people’s hearts or force their minds to do something just so we can have the fun of killing them for disobeying us, even though we made them disobey. Then we could be just like God, when he hardened the heart of the king of Heshbon just so that he could have him and all of his people killed. (Deut. 2:30)

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deut. 22:23-24)

I suppose there are more, but heck, by the time we get these worked into laws, and real life, there may not be enough people to kill to really appease God anymore - and thus we will all die anyway because God will get mad. Sad really. Eh, so be it, right?

OKay, one more. That's it I promise.

If you don't obey all of the laws that are given in the Old Testament, God shower you with the curses that are given in the next 52 verses. (Deut. 28:16-68)

And yes, this is all in your Bible. This is supposed to be your moral authority! This is what the Bible condones – in fact it commands - and this is exactly what the point of this discussion was. It seems to have gone over your head completely, or you just want to focus on the irrelevant points and ad hoc your way out of this troubling position you found yourself in.



You are mistaking two things. The first is a slave, and the second is a Jewish servant. The two are not the same. A slave was from another nation, not from the Jewish society. They were outsiders who when captured or taken as war plunder were beaten, bruised and disciplined to do exactly what their masters wanted. A Jewish servant, however, was simply an indentured servant, who worked for only five years to pay off a debt. You can re-read Leviticus for this information, if you have the intellectual honesty to do so.

Your misunderstanding of this is not surprising given the rest of your putrid diatribe. You may be respectful, I’ll give you that, but you’re not as learned as you think you are. Go back to studying.



You really don’t read the Bible, ever, do you? The answer to this question is clearly YES. The above proves that times over.



Paul is not God. Far from it. And all Paul did was command Onesimus to do his bidding in another manner that would serve Paul more usefully. Paul, himself in prison, would do little with a slave. He clearly sent Onesimus out to do his work FOR him, as explained further down that chapter, which again you ignored or didn’t know about. (Another Bible Gateway search?) Phil. 1:13, “whom I desired to keep with me, that on your behalf he might serve me in my chains for the Good News.”

His poetic rephrasing of what Onesimus is about to do does not change anything, simply makes it poetry. A spade is still a spade. And your use of a non-sequitor is annoying me. Tell me again why you’d follow up with Paul after asking a question about God you failed to answer?



They were still right, you nimrod. The slavers of the south and the members of the KKK, although Bigots, were not misled in their interpretations. The Bible is clear on slavery, it accepts it and condones it, and regardless of their retardedness, they were accurate. That itself is one of the many reasons people like me disregard the Bibvle as primitive and amoral. Because, d’uh, it is.



Not according to your Bible.



That’s because atheism isn’t a religion you twit. It’s a lack of religion. In fact, it’s a lack of god. The only thing one atheist has to have in common with another atheist is that lack of belief in a God or Gods (god or gods). That is the joy of being able to think freely, and not be confined by religious dogma and doctrine that, as proven above, is nothing more then primitive babbling and begats, begats, begats….



Speaks volumes of what you know, again…

The phrase “for them that defile themselves with mankind” is one long, drawn out line of bullshit added in by the translators again. That WHOLE line is only one word in Greek: αρσενοκοιταις or arsenokoites. The English is “sodomite.” In fact, that is a direct correlation with homosexuality. As a sodomite is somebody who sleeps with another person of the same sex. As defined in the Greek. Learn some Greek, for goodness sake! See the truth behind the lies.



Again, you with the misunderstandings! Correcting your mistakes is going to give me finger-cramps! “Nor abusers of themselves with mankind” is again one long bullshit phrase in replace of arsenokoites. Again, sodomites. Paul is clearly against homosexuality. Clearly. He uses the same word for the same act, over and over. Translators don’t like the way it’s phrased (again, this is supposed to be a morally sound book!) so they alter the meaning to appease the reader. Just like you are trying to do. The Bible already says what it wanted to say…changing that only makes you dishonest. Admit the Bible for what it is – a ridiculous, amoral and primitive book.



Actually, by replacing homosexuality with one, long, drawn-out bullshit phrase really damages your credibility and your argument.



It’s truly ashame YOU didn’t write the Bible, then isn’t? The fact is, your opinion is irrelevant, especially in light of the evidence bearing down on you.



No, but it does tell us to KILL them. Twit.

Leviticus 20:13, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

You can’t get more direct then that!



Except…it did, and I agree that it’s wrong. Of course it’s wrong! Nobody deserves unfair treatment! But let’s face it, the Bible is full of such things. In fact, the following things are subjective to IMMEDIATE execution in the bible (In other words, you commit one of these acts, and you die):

• (a) striking your father or mother (Ex.21:15);
• (b) kidnapping (Ex. 21:6 RSV);
• (c) cursing your father or mother (Ex. 21:17 RSV, Lev. 20:9);
• (d) touching a mountain (Ex. 19:12 RSV);
• (e) allowing your ox to gore someone (Ex. 21:29);
• (f) lying with a beast (Ex. 22:19) RSV, Lev. 20:15-16);
• (g) sacrificing to other gods (Ex. 22:20 RSV);
• (h) failing to observe the Sabbath (Ex. 31:14-15);
• (i) drinking strong drinks while in the tabernacle (Lev. 10:9);
• (j) committing adultery (Lev. 20:10 RSV, Deut. 22:22);
• (k) lying with your father's wife (Lev. 20:11 RSV);
• (l) lying with your daughter-in-law (Lev. 20:12 RSV);
• (m) committing homosexual acts (Lev. 20:13 RSV);
• (n) being a medium or a wizard (Lev. 20:27 RSV);
• (o) being a witch (Ex. 22:18);
• (p) being a priest's daughter and becoming a whore (Lev. 21:9 RSV);
• (q) Blaspheming the name of the Lord (Lev. 24:16);
• cursing (Lev. 24:14 RSV);
• (s) coming near the priesthood (Num. 3:10);
• (t) being a stranger who comes near the congregation's tabernacle (Num. 3:8);
• (u) gathering sticks on the Sabbath (Num. 15:32-35);
• (v) serving or worshipping other gods (Deut. 17:2-5 RSV);
• (w) showing contempt for the Lord's priest or judge (Deut. 17:12 NIV);
• (x) failing to obey one's parents (Deut. 21:18-21);
• (y) not being a virgin on your wedding day (Deut. 22:20-21 NIV);
• (z) being a betrothed virgin who did not cry out when seduced (Deut. 22:23-24);
• (aa) having relations with your wife and her mother (Lev. 20:14);
• (bb) telling people to seek other gods (Deut. 13:2,5); and
• (cc) being a false prophet (Deut. 18:20).

And these are God's rules. Imagine living in that era!


Only in ideology. Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, and many many others would disagree with you. What about the Christian Soldiers movement? It has pictures of soldiers holding GUNS on it’s website…for KIDS! Obviously, something went amiss in translation, don’t you think?



John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, said it well: "If there be any mistake in the Bible, there may well be a thousand. If there be one falsehood in that book, it did not come from the God of truth." (Journal, Wed., July 24, 1776). It becomes nothing more than another book on the shelf. Indeed, your book has failed every moral, scientific and ethical test known to man. It fails at history, geography and chronology. And some of your most sacred ideas like the death of Jesus are in question..within the BOOK ITSELF! In Acts, Jesus is said to have been hung from a tree. How does one explain that contradiction? And trust me, the Greek adds up on that one too.

Go back to studying.
[/quote]

_________________
REP THE STUTTER STEP THEN BOMB A LEFT UPON THE FASCISTS!! (ratm)

Like a Hawk...I am watching you, Mr. President.

PS


Nice straw man. You know the word homosexual was changed depending on your bible. . I would use these clear and strong ones such as.

LEV. 18:22 ("Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination"), LEV. 20:13 ("If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death") ROM. 1:26-27 ("For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use (a degrading word--Ed.) of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly.

You that there were no divine right of kings? How about 1000s of years of kingdoms.



And I dont hate religoins I just think they are silly. But Judaism and Christianity in particular are the financial backbone of the occupation. That's whY I dont rip into Buddhism or Taoism or Hedu so much and that last one is full of racism. It's because I dont care. But when it comes to Neocons you just cant separate the Bible thumping Christians from the pack they go hand in hand.

Animal sacrifice, slavery, and dont even try to say the Bible (not chrisitans) but the Bible doesn't damn homosexuality because it does. Its full of nonsense.



YOu can change the word slave to servent if you want but its still means slave. What kind of servent can be beaten by his master so long as he can get up after a couple days when he is his master's PROPERTY. ???

Duh! They just replace the word slave with "servent" but you know it was originially slave and they mean t slave and pracitsed slavery.

_________________
This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-dealcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
My Twitter
"It doesn't matter who we are underneath. It is what we do that defines us." Batman

Booga booga Iran... Meanwhile Israel secretly built hundred of nukes using technology stolen from the US. Everyone knows it and no one does anything about it.

Google version of War by Deception (Magic Bunnies)
Pass HR 1207 and S604 audit the Fed



ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you

There's no denying or rationalising the atrocities in both the bible and Judaic texts. Those who do so expose the true depths of their conditioning. Here are a few nasty little examples which I'm sure the religious among you will revile me for quoting:

Samuel 15:2-4
"...go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling"

Psalm 137:8-9
"O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!"

Numbers 31:17-18
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

And from Rabbinical Talmudic scripture:

"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye."
(Mishnah Niddah 5:4)

I could go on, but I already feel sick to my stomach. That guy Jehovah is just BRIMMING with love, isn't he?

F

First to 'Left of Larry", {(Let me guess, you just went on Bible Gateway and did a word search and it turned up two verses, right? Typical non-learned Christian.) } For your information I did not do a word search on Bible Gateway, but I'm willing to guess that the massive amount of text on your post was not your own but selectively cut and pasted from some other website(S).

Ry,
you really should take some advice and offer a little more leadership on this board. All of the ranting and complaining about the Bible really doesn't do anything for the cause. Neo-cons and the religious right use religion as a tool to brainwash religious types into backing their political cause. You are doing the same thing in reverse.
The church that I attended before I moved didn't fund Israel or the Republican party like you assume every Christian church does. Also, the books of the Bible that you are constantly quoting from (Leviticus) is rarely if ever quoted in most contemporary churches. The agnostic books are the crux (for lack of a better term) of the Christian religion. Christians, at least the ones that I know, do not worship the Bible but take it for what it is. No, I will not be running to my preacher for any advice because I'm not even attending church right now but I'll pray for you anyway. You seem to have much passion but converting the entire world away from their religions is an impossible task. Instead, why not try using the positive things taught by the leaders of western and eastern religions to find common ground. Pointing out laws that Moses gave the Hebrews in Leviticus really doesn't prove anything. Everyone knows those are obsolete laws and nobody would be expected to live by them. If any church actually preaches to live by those laws they would probably be few and far between or some kind of cult type sect.
Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion/beliefs. Instead of bashing Christianity and Judaism, why not promote why you think Atheism more positive belief system or the eastern religions you seem fond of. There are the "Pat Robertson’s" in every religion. Unfortunately the loudest voice gets to represent the group they claim to speak for. Assuming that all Christians are the same as Pat Robertson or the like is the same as assuming that all Americans are like George W. Bush.
Peace man.

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

The {agnostic} books are the crux (for lack of a better term) of the Christian religion.

Sorry, I'm not working on much sleep. I meant to say Synoptic Gospels.

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

ACtually if you look carefully that is not my response. But Rook's of RRS. Who is a biblical scholar and his work is profread and checked by Richard Carrier.

Secondly, even if it was...a cut and paste job, obviously you fail to refute it. So what's your point besides chasing a red herring?

_________________
REP THE STUTTER STEP THEN BOMB A LEFT UPON THE FASCISTS!! (ratm)

Like a Hawk...I am watching you, Mr. President.

Just read my last post man and go with it.

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

one may wonder when will those christians
start discussing
offensive passage of the bible,

instead of shifting the topics, insulting and namecalling.

Bible promotes slavery, racism and sexual mutilation amongst good things.



Biblical Jesus is a racist, not your imaginary Jesus

http://opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2495

documented with sources from Bible.

open eyes your defense for Leviticus is oh well we dont read that book much anymore we rarely use it. That's my point you're not reading it. I bet you had never read it until I pointed it out. I also quote Exodus you know the book the the Ten Commandmants dont try and say you don't use That one. The following chapter of the Te Commandmants EX 20 is Ex 21 which talks about beating your slaves and how they are your property.
Now call it servent if you want, a servent you can beat and who is your property. lol

you just don't know your own religious text. It supports slavery.

Now you can get on my case for pointing that out on a political site. However I have explained the connection between churches and the MIC. CHurches are centralized for your information so when you say your little church does nothing dont be so sure. They have to pay a portion to their diet who goes up to the WCC who inevest the money for profit into defense companies. Ask your preacher about it if you don't believe me.

The point of this however was to show how even Xtians don't read their own texts. You can say the same thing about Muslims. SO when some kook gets on TV and quotes crzy stuff from the Koran its not always out of context there are plenty of stupid things in the Qurran however equally and in my opinion even more outlandish things are said in the Bible and the especially the Torrah.

_________________
This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-dealcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
My Twitter
"It doesn't matter who we are underneath. It is what we do that defines us." Batman

Booga booga Iran... Meanwhile Israel secretly built hundred of nukes using technology stolen from the US. Everyone knows it and no one does anything about it.

Google version of War by Deception (Magic Bunnies)
Pass HR 1207 and S604 audit the Fed



ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you

ok, I'll say this, to allow the xtian right to do what they have been doing, you can kiss your free ass goodbye because the goal of the xtian right is to change this country into a theocratic democracy..where sure, you're free to choose; between on xtian or another. I don't think you guys here realize the intricacies involved between church and poliltics. It is because of the churches and religion that we are in this mess today, because if it wasn't for all the religious social issues these people would not be in power today. The neocons are funded by corporations and supported democratically by a majority of xtians.

so it comes to no surprise that an anti-neocon site is also going to be anti-religion. The fact that religion for 1. is logically flawed, based on no evidence, and 2. used as a method to control and vote gathering by neocons, obviously will be attacked on this forum. This is not new and it's only recently that Ry has been criticized for his criticism of religion so vehemently on this site. I have seen a large number of muslims as well as xtians agreeing with everthing except for the religion part...well, surprise, religion is exactly what it is that's causing this fucking mess. Or at the very least fuelling the fire.

so how do we solve this? I believe it must be a multi-faceted approach. But one, is to attack it at it's core. So we attack the bible, and rational belief.

To cater to peoples' sensitivities abour religion would not amount to what this site represents. I think Ry, has a clear goal in mind here. He backs it up logically and concisely. You cannot pick and choose what you want to belive it is all part of the big picture.

Our atheism stems from the same logic that has brought us against the neocons and what they stand for. To fight neocons or zionists, or extremist muslims...you have to attack it all at the core...and I'm sorry..guys..but religion is the core. Tell me where we'd be today if religion wasn't the intrical part of the equation.

_________________
REP THE STUTTER STEP THEN BOMB A LEFT UPON THE FASCISTS!! (ratm)

Like a Hawk...I am watching you, Mr. President.

cory,

I heard you, and it's why I only post here on occasion

_________________

Demockery101,
I hear ya man. I love how Ry attacks me and says I never read Leviticus or Exodus. That's bullshit. Of course I've read them. You need to take a step back and realize that your becoming just as blinded by your bitterness and your assumptions as the neo-cons. I think I'll be spending less time here myself as well before I get turned away from the anti-neocon movement by the bitterness and uneducated responses that has been witnessed on this thread. We are all fighting the same fight. The namecalling has been all on one side. Assuming that all Christians are neo-cons is a very childish idea LeftOfLarry. That means all Jews are Zionists and all Muslims are blowing themselves up in malls too right? Ry, you can come off quite smug sometimes. Can we move on now?

_________________
"The fate of our country remains that of a mediocre nation that happens to have the most weapons, and just masses of undereducated illiterates to wield them."
- Elizabeth Ross

Here some that I came across...

Just the Jews are humans, the Non-Jews are no humans, but cattle. (goyim human cattle) (Kerithuth 6b page 78, Jebhammoth 61a)

The Non-Jews have been created to serve the Jews as slaves. - (Midrasch Talpioth 225)

The Non-Jews have to be avoided, even more than sick pigs. - (Orach Chaiim 57, 6a)

Sexual intercourse with Non-Jews is like sexual intercourse with animals (Kethuboth 3b)

The birth-rate of the Non-Jews has to be suppressed massively - (Zohar II, 4b)

As you replace lost cows and donkeys, so you shall replace dead Non-Jews. (Iore Dea 337,1)

To box an Israeli on the ear, is like to box on the ear of god. (Sanhedrin 58b)

"God (Jahveh) is never angry about the Jews, just about the Non-Jews (Talmud IV/8/4a)

The human (Jew) has to pray every day three times, because Jahveh didnt make him a goyim, not a female and not an ignorant. (Talmud V/2/43b 44a)

Everywhere they (the Jews) come, they will be the princes of the lords (Sanhedrin 104a)

I (Jahveh) make you (the Jewry) the ancestor of the peoples, I make you the selected one amongst the peoples, I make you the king over the peoples, I make you the loved one amongst the peoples, I make you the best one amongst the peoples, I make you the trsuted one amongst the peoples (Schabbat 105a)

Towards a Non-Jew the Jew doesnt cause an adultery Punishable for the Jew, is just the adultery towards his next, that means the wife of a Jew. The wife of the Non-Jew is excluded (Talmud IV/4/52b)

There is no wife for the goyim, they really arent their wives - (Talmud IV/4/81 82ab)

You (the Jews) have made me, Jahveh, the only true lord in the world, so I will make you the only ruler in the world

Who wants to be smart shall occupy himself with money matters, because there are no corner pillars in the Thora that are more important, because they are like a sparkling fountain (Talmud IV/3/173b)

Jews always have to try to deceive Non-Jews (Zohar I, 168a)

Carry on trade with Non-Jews, if they have to pay money for it - (Abhodah Zarah 2a T)

Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first - (Babba Bathra 54b)

If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit - (Choschen Ham 183,7)

Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin - (Babha Kama 113a)

The possessions of the goyim are like an ownerless desert, and everybody (every Jew) who seizes it, has acquired it - (Talmud IV/3/54b)

The Jew is allowed to exploit the mistake of a Non-Jew and to deceive him - (Talmud IV/1/113b)

The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew - (Talmud IV/2/70b)

When the Messiah comes, all will be slaves of the Jews - (Erubin 43b)

Lovely, isnt it? The Protocols comes to mind
I have to say tho I do not have a full Talmud handy so the factual accuracy of these quotes is disputed.

_________________
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

I guess you're right opened eyes. Well, I also say we stop criticizing israel for fear of being looked upon as anti-semites. No seriously, I don't want anyone on this site even considering criticizing jews...ever again. It is looked upon as insensitive and anti-semitical. And we do not want to hurt any feelings. It doesn't matter what the truth is.... right? Because not all jews are zionsist so we should stop criticizing israel.... so concede to AIPAC's wishes becase, obviuosly since not all jews are zionists..thsi must stop

Dude listen, you are putting words in my mouth are you not? Show me where in the above post I made I said anything about assumptions that all xtians are neocons or all jews are zionists, or all muslims blow themselves up. Show me where....you do that, I'll concede. Otherwise, it seems to me you are chasing a red herring because you cannot counter what I said. If you do not agree, then perhaps....you're not seeing the big picture. I am critizing religion....period as part of the root of the neocons' rise to power. If you for one minute think that religion has not played a part in the rise of Bush's regime..then you have not been educated on teh subject. To ignore that because of fear of sounding like a bigotted generalist, then you have just fallen victim to AIPCAitis. Because it's exactly this same kind of rhetoric that has silenced any criticism of israel.

I say simply this: either defend your position through debate, being mature enough to not have your feelings hurt, ignore the posts about religion, or maybe the ideas expressed within this forum are not for you.

But to silence what we think is part of the neocon problem is not conducive to the anti-neocon movement.

_________________
REP THE STUTTER STEP THEN BOMB A LEFT UPON THE FASCISTS!! (ratm)

Like a Hawk...I am watching you, Mr. President.

i think we're all here for the same purpose, to fight the neocon agenda, debating what we feel is right from a religious standpoint could easily pin us against one another. i think it's best to leave religion at the door and discuss more important issues, but that's just my opinion personally, free speech anyone can discuss whatever they feel like. anyone agree with me?

_________________
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." -Aesop

"Tolerance and apathy are the first signs of a dying society." -Aristotle