Anti-Neocons

What I was saying was that if Socialism was Stalin then he wasn't a socialist. Social skills with a small s is different than socialism too. The US did adopt a lot of socialism, (post office, police, fire fighters, public schools, etc) it's not the same thing as communism.
He moved to the US and became a teacher and gave speeches all over the world. He was a fan of capitalism. What he hated was nationalism that was after nearly starving to death and living through two world wars. Einstein is (unfairly) upheld as one of the smartest men in history. Thus the Zionist love to spin him to their cause. He was only a Zionist when Zionism meant protecting Jewish Culture (and he wasn't even religious) Once it became Jewish Fascism thanks in large part to American Christian fascist, he hated it.


Einstein Letter Warning Of
Zionist Facism In Israel
Letter That Albert Einstein Sent to the New York Times
1948, Protesting the Visit of Menachem Begin
11-1-4

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Again on page 151 there is a chapter called "Why Socialism" it is taken "from Monthly Review, New York, May 1949".

"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil."

That's my proof. What proof do you have for YOUR assertion.

stewie you are forgetting the part of "as it exists today." and not as it exist as a theory or practice.

And this is the full quote


and here is more of it
The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.


And I guess you are falling away from your earlier assertions about him supporting Stalin and being a Zionist an [by zionist than means facist].

Address or acknowledge that first.

Because I didn't post his published letter about opposing the fascism in Israel as well as its American counter parts just for the fun of it. Sure you can take sentence quotations and say look here Einstein support Zionism. Which is all well and good until you understand that once upon a time Zionism as a term did not mean Israeli fascism. It was preservation of Jewish culture in a time where almost a million of them in the diaspora were killed. Once Israel turned on the Palestinians and it became about Biblical prophecy and nationalism hiding behind religion, Einstein rejected them. Thus he was an anti-racist and that was his original position as well. He didn't like Fascist Israeli Zionism any more than Fascist German Nazism and saw no difference albeit one roots in religion the other in pseudo science.

You're reading a quote book. I read books about his entire life. Which do you think is more accurate and complete?

What Einstein was saying in that selective passage was that under the current form of capitalism it had spilled past the realm of economics and into morality. The corporation and profit model of expands at any cost that you can get away with sets up an amoral institution that looks first at growth and justifies all else with that by saying well it worked we have growth. That is why he called it anarchy. He blamed not capital but the educational system. Currently then and now people were taught the ends justify the means so long as there was "progress." They are not taught social (small s) values, they are taught "it's just business" and expansion and growth are a must and bare no moral responsibilities because they are the highest priority in capitalism. He wasn't arguing that the system didn't work in terms of it didn't produce capital, it certainly does do that, he was arguing that it is allowing for headless unaccountable evils to be done in the name of growth because of the lack of accountability or social values. Things are done for profit and they only increase social needs when they happen to overlap and when they don't overlap then it creates the opposite social degradation.



And he's right. Capitalism does have the problem of the profit motive and not the social needs of the society (which is why the US has a mixed economy) and socialism does have the weakness of being a planned economy with no assurance that those plans made by the state won't also just be for the state and ignore the individual.

as Einstein said in the same paper


He ended it in a question not an advocacy for Socialism. He just pointed out some flaws of capitalism but then he did the same to socialism.

tada we have a mixed system. Socialism for collective needs that don't sell products (like police and public libraries, and schools) and capitalism where there is products to sell like clothing stores and cars etc. Where competition makes better goods. AKA build the cars privately build the road they drive on collectively (since everyone uses them).

Now as far as his plagiarism goes we've written about that on the forum before. I think that's spot on to accuse him of that. After all he worked in a patent office and couldn't explain some of his own ideas.

But he was staunchly against Stalin and Hitler and later Israel after it became what it is now. And he moved away not to Russia but to the Capitalist US (and learned yet another language) where he became a teacher.

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Ry, first about him being a socialist. It looks like he believed in both socialism and capitalism. He says good and bad things about both of them, believing in both systems abuses of power could happen. Somebody can not say "I am convinced that there is only ONE way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" and not be called at least to some extent a socialist. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying there's a grey area there.

About the zionism, I read more of what he has said and yeah it looks like he did not have the hateful attitudes that today would be called zionist. I simply did not know that zionism did not mean then what it means now (I'll look into it but I'll take your word on it for now). But that does not change the fact that he was known as a zionist at the time and even basically said he was one. You cannot say that because the definition of that has changed over time that he was not technically a zionist. Was he zionist as we think of them today? No. And I do acknowledge the letter that Einstein sent to the New York Times shows him to be against many of the things we call zionist today.

I have not yet researched whether or not he supported or whitewashed what was done under Stalin, but like I said, I remember seeing some things about that, and it seemed pretty conclusive. I will get back to you on that.

You said: "You're reading a quote book."

The book is not a book of quotes. The publishers note says "Ideas and Opinions represents an attempt to gather together, so far as possible, in one volume the most important of Albert Einstein's general writings." I am not disputing that you know more about him nor am I saying that others books about him don't go into much more depth.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2007-03/einstein.html


Einstein was also sympathetic to the Soviet style of government, likely because that particular form of government was consistent with many of his political views (e.g., a belief in a centrally planned economy), combined with the looming threat of Nazism in Europe (Laqueur 1990). Einstein was not alone in his political beliefs. Capitalistic societies were in the midst of the Great Depression, and as Caute (1988) points out, many scientists in the 1930s endorsed the Soviet system because of the “notion that the most rapid scientific advances are made by a system which methodically relates research to the solution of social problems” (p. 272). To these scientists, the Soviet Union could become a vast experiment in which scientists would play a vital role in engineering a human society.

Thus, Einstein had strong beliefs in both political liberty and the Soviet style of government during the 1930s. Interestingly, Einstein refused to join or endorse an international commission headed by John Dewey to investigate the Moscow Show Trials (a consistent skeptic would seek both confirmatory and discrediting evidence) and would subsequently write to Max Born that “there are increasing signs the Russian trials are not faked, but that there is a plot among those who look upon Stalin as a stupid reactionary who has betrayed the ideas of the revolution” (quoted in Born 1971, p. 130). Born would later comment that most people in the West at the time believed the trials “to be the arbitrary acts of a cruel dictator.” Einstein, however, relied upon information from people he described as “those who know Russia best.”

The important point, however, is that Einstein’s positive beliefs toward the Soviet Union did not change as substantial information came forth demonstrating that the Soviet Union was a totalitarian state that did not tolerate political liberty. Einstein was never shy about judging capitalism or Nazism by their deeds and actions instead of their rhetoric. He did not apply this standard to the Soviet Union. A consistent skeptic would not use double standards to evaluate different forms of governments.

If Einstein was a consistent skeptic, one would predict that, as the accumulating evidence came forth over the years, Einstein would modify his beliefs and become a leading critic of both Stalin and the Soviet Union for their violations of political liberty. Millions of Soviet citizens were arbitrarily murdered as a direct result of government action, and millions more were put into slave labor camps. While Einstein’s writings, letters, and correspondence on this issue are scattered, his correspondence with the philosopher Sidney Hook on this specific issue is most enlightening (and disturbing). We encourage you to read chapter 28 (“My Running Debate with Albert Einstein”) in Hook’s (1987) autobiography, Out of Step: An Unquiet Life in the Twentieth Century. The chapter relies heavily upon letters exchanged between the two men, and reading the chapter in its entirety provides a much richer context than the brief summary we provide here.

Einstein, a professed believer in political liberty, virtually refuses to criticize the Soviet government and justifies the murders and creation of slave labor camps. The closest Einstein comes to criticism of the Soviet government is contained in the first sentence of the following quote. However, the next sentence speaks for itself. According to Einstein in 1948, “I am not blind to the serious weaknesses of the Russian system of government and I would not like to live under such government. But it has, on the other side, great merits and it is difficult to decide whether it would have been possible for the Russians to survive by following softer methods” (Einstein quoted in Hook 1987, p. 471).

Hook responded with a lengthy letter, pointing out many inconsistencies in Einstein’s reasoning when it came to the Soviet Union:

Precisely what methods have you in mind? I am puzzled on what evidence anyone can assert that cultural purges and terror in astronomy, biology, art, music, literature, the social sciences, helped the Russians to survive, or how the millions of victims in concentration camps of the Soviet Union, not to speak of the wholesale executions, contributed in any way to the Russian victory over Hitler. The Russians defeated Napoleon who was relative to his time even mightier than Hitler. But I don’t believe you would find it difficult to decide that this in no way constituted a historic justification of serfdom. (p. 473)

Einstein did not respond to Hook’s letter. We would have expected some reply, at least claiming that Einstein was misunderstood. However, other writings by Einstein indicate that he believed, for the Russian people, “a painful temporary renunciation of his personal independence” was necessary and that Einstein himself would have “deemed it my duty to make this temporary sacrifice” (Einstein quoted in Hook, 1987, p. 476). Thus, for the Soviet people, Einstein abandons his own views about political liberty (a clear double standard). Max Born (1971) also found Einstein’s views toward the Soviet Union “hard to reconcile” (p. 131). Hook (1987) summarizes that he “was mystified by Einstein’s failure to come to grips with the revelations of the victims of Stalin’s terror” (p. 478). Unfortunately, Einstein was not alone, as many intellectuals, perhaps attracted to the lofty goals of communism, refused to acknowledge the devastating actions of the Soviet government (Sowell 1996).

Einstein does not demonstrate the hallmarks of a consistent skeptic when it comes to his evaluation of the Soviet Union. It is doubtful that anyone committed to rigorous skepticism would agree with Einstein’s view that a government has the right to murder millions of its own citizens and create slave labor camps as a preemptive strategy if it believes it will be attacked at some future date. Interestingly, Einstein judged the German people to be “the land of mass-murderers” (Einstein quoted in Born 1971, p. 199) and the individual citizen personally responsible for the crimes of the Nazi regime. However, by this standard, Einstein himself would have felt it justified if he was murdered for “correct” political reasons, or himself part of a land of mass-murderers if he lived in the Soviet Union under Stalin. The great irony is that Stalin’s government, like Hitler’s, murdered millions of its own citizens and did not tolerate political liberty. Only a “true believer” could not make that assessment.

Re-read the above.

Einstein didn't want a planned economy, he wanted an educational system that focused on social needs, he pointed to that as a main evil of capitalism as it it is actually practiced. And he said you couldn't have a planned economy without doing all the same harm to the individual that capitalism does unless and until you first fixed the education.

To Einstein it was more holistic. Economic practice was not neatly separable from educational indoctrination to value like the profit motive etc. Likewise a state planed economy is just going to benefit the state when the people comprising it have no social values but values of capital at any cost.

So yeh 1) he was not supporting Zionist Fascism in fact he opposed it.
2) He was not a socialist (despite how bad they'd like to claim him as one) he was a critic of both capitalism and socialism and saw the problems not as purely economic but cultural, and looked to education as the solution.
3)He did not support Stalin, please look up more about Dewey's student Sidney Hook a Trotskyte and former Marxist.
4) Einstein probably was a plagiarist. (and we've been over that before)
But by adding in all this other stuff like he's a zionist socialist and suported stalin, etc it weakens the claim. Because he wasn't fascist he was closer to a passivist if anything, and he wasn't a socialist, he just didn't like aspects of capitalism. He liked the social goals of socialism but not its practice because it requires a benevolent state, and he didn't like the non-social goals of capitalism and infinite competition either. But he chose to live in the US not Russia so that should say something. Hook is full of shit. Hook believes an elite should rule over the "simpletons" and lie to them for their own good. Albert stood by the revolution of Russia but not Stalin. Over and over again he deplores war, murder, etc.

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ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you

I take back what I said before, he was socialist. For chrisakes he wrote an article called "Why Socialism" in which he stated "I am convinced that there is only ONE way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented towards social goals." He said some cautionary things about socialism and some ok things about capitalism but 90% of what he said was in support of socialism.

And Ry, EVERYBODY on the internet describes him as a socialist. Sure there are a lot of wrong opinions on the internet, but not about something as obvious as a persons political persuasion. Nobody calls him a supporter of capitalism.

He even say he's a socialist himself.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QXCyjj ... &resnum=24

Einstein shrugged his shoulders and mumbled, "It does not interest me. I am a socialist, as you know, and my only interest is to teach youth to consider the welfare of all people and to attain the intellectual freedom of the individual which is required to build a socialist state."


Game, set and match.




I only said he was a zionist. He called himself a zionist and so did everyone around him at the time too. Once again I never said he was a zoinist as we think of them today, even though in some ways he was, he threw around the word anti-semitism a LOT. SO MY STATEMENT THAT HE WAS A ZIONIST IS STILL CORRECT.



Wow is that the best you can come up with? By the way that's just an ad hominem attack, you are attacking the messenger not the message. The article pretty much proves that Einstein had a huge double standard when it came to the Soviet Union under Stalin.

And what about the physicist Max Born (Max Born (1971) also found Einstein’s views toward the Soviet Union “hard to reconcile” (p. 131).)

This paragraph rips your argument (oh yeah I forgot, you never gave any evidence in support of your assertion, it was just an ad hominem attack) apart.

"Thus, Einstein had strong beliefs in both political liberty and the Soviet style of government during the 1930s. Interestingly, Einstein refused to join or endorse an international commission headed by John Dewey to investigate the Moscow Show Trials (a consistent skeptic would seek both confirmatory and discrediting evidence) and would subsequently write to Max Born that “there are increasing signs the Russian trials are not faked, but that there is a plot among those who look upon Stalin as a stupid reactionary who has betrayed the ideas of the revolution” (quoted in Born 1971, p. 130). Born would later comment that most people in the West at the time believed the trials “to be the arbitrary acts of a cruel dictator.” Einstein, however, relied upon information from people he described as “those who know Russia best.”"

And since you just ignored the article let me put this passage up again:

Einstein, a professed believer in political liberty, virtually refuses to criticize the Soviet government and justifies the murders and creation of slave labor camps. The closest Einstein comes to criticism of the Soviet government is contained in the first sentence of the following quote. However, the next sentence speaks for itself. According to Einstein in 1948, “I am not blind to the serious weaknesses of the Russian system of government and I would not like to live under such government. But it has, on the other side, great merits and it is difficult to decide whether it would have been possible for the Russians to survive by following softer methods” (Einstein quoted in Hook 1987, p. 471).

Hook responded with a lengthy letter, pointing out many inconsistencies in Einstein’s reasoning when it came to the Soviet Union:

Precisely what methods have you in mind? I am puzzled on what evidence anyone can assert that cultural purges and terror in astronomy, biology, art, music, literature, the social sciences, helped the Russians to survive, or how the millions of victims in concentration camps of the Soviet Union, not to speak of the wholesale executions, contributed in any way to the Russian victory over Hitler. The Russians defeated Napoleon who was relative to his time even mightier than Hitler. But I don’t believe you would find it difficult to decide that this in no way constituted a historic justification of serfdom. (p. 473)

Einstein did not respond to Hook’s letter. We would have expected some reply, at least claiming that Einstein was misunderstood. However, other writings by Einstein indicate that he believed, for the Russian people, “a painful temporary renunciation of his personal independence” was necessary and that Einstein himself would have “deemed it my duty to make this temporary sacrifice” (Einstein quoted in Hook, 1987, p. 476). Thus, for the Soviet people, Einstein abandons his own views about political liberty (a clear double standard). Max Born (1971) also found Einstein’s views toward the Soviet Union “hard to reconcile” (p. 131). Hook (1987) summarizes that he “was mystified by Einstein’s failure to come to grips with the revelations of the victims of Stalin’s terror” (p. 478). Unfortunately, Einstein was not alone, as many intellectuals, perhaps attracted to the lofty goals of communism, refused to acknowledge the devastating actions of the Soviet government (Sowell 1996).

That last citation looks like it could be Thomas Sowell. I'm waiting for your ad hominem attack on him. ( or your other strategy of just ignoring my totally valid points like that the book Ideas and Opinions was NOT just a quote book )



Once again, not true. Like I said EVERYBODY on the internet thinks he was socialist already, and he himself basically called himself a zionist.



He refused to condemn Stalins show trials and:

According to Einstein in 1948, “I am not blind to the serious weaknesses of the Russian system of government and I would not like to live under such government. But it has, on the other side, great merits and it is difficult to decide whether it would have been possible for the Russians to survive by following softer methods” (Einstein quoted in Hook 1987, p. 471).

He's clearly talking about Stalin's "methods" of terror and totalitarianism. It is impossible to separate Stalin from what happened in Stalinist Russia.

I'm really surprised that you deny such obvious facts.

Everyone on the web says he was a socialist... so what. Stewie it only takes one wiki article to do that.

Read his own words in "Why Socialism" oh wait I already wrote them. You should have known that because thats what your quote book picked up from. That's what I was quoting from. I don't form my opinion by what "everybody" says. I form it based on what Einstein said and did. That's the one you just read where he criticized BOTH socialism and capitalism.

He criticized both economic systems and to him it was about education not economic theory. He ended why socialism by saying how stupid a state planned economy is and how it is susceptible to all the same ills as capitalism and it would destroy the individual.

I don't have to read Why Socialism because I already did, that was the article the above Einstein quotes came from. I'm surprised you didn't know where they came from because your first quotes came from the same article. You know the Web says he was Zionist too and they are dead wrong about that as well. There is no reason to pick out sentences to make a case when you can read the whole thing including important things like oh I don't know, his conclusion, and then know what he thought about it.

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This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-deathcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
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ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you