Anti-Neocons

It's easy to take things out of context and make them look like they're something they're not. If you want to really understand those passages and quotes, which are not originally in english, then God-willing I'd be happy to give you the number of a Sheikh who can explain what all of that means to you and how it's not at all what you're trying to imply. If you're interested in knowing the Truth, that is. If you just want to criticize and you're not really interested, then so be it.

For example, if someone orders that I be given $10 and my sister be given $2, you can make it seem really sexist and biased if you don't mention or acknowledge the fact that I have to spend half of the $10 I was given on my sister.

Like I said, it's really easy to take things out of context and then say something is "stupid"... not quite as easy to look at the big picture and learn the realities. Then again, a lot of people who attack Islam aren't really interested in learning the realities, they only seem interested in bashing the religion. But anyone interested in learning, like I said, God-willing I'll put you in contact with someone who knows what they're talking about.

hahahhaha nice cut and paste tim the only point I give you is that Saudi Arabia is more rigid than the others. Not driving cars is their own doing. But it's also based on Islam and quite possibly not possible to do that in a society without a religious justification. You used to be allowed to drink a beer in Iraq. But that's not because of Islam but in spite of it. Other Muslim nations don't have less draconian laws than each other because they are Muslim but in spite of it. Compared to the rest of the world anyone of them are the most rigid backwards places on earth. Unless its some remote place with and even crazier faith.

And holy magic cow shit abd you gave the out of context excuse.

let's read the scripture then just pick one. It's not out of context. The context is just stupid. You'd have to intentionally sit and think of tons of excuses out of your own imagination constantly in order to forgive and interpret the thousand of outlandish claims in religious text in order to be left with something that was even legal much less based in reality.

Are you denying that there was a magic cow and a man came back to life?
Let's look at the context.


You want the context, they are talking to Moses about the golden cow. Same character and story as in the bible only with extra added bullshit. The chapter starts with the story of Adam and the garden the same as the bullshit books of Judaism it took the story from and the twist on a Jewish god that you are worshiping. Oh but of course your version of the garden story and the cow are the "real" story and the Christian and Jewish ones that are centuries older and original, are the "false" ones. Suuuuuuure. OR they're all false, because the world wasn't made ina week and animals were not just put here all at once they evolved (this is based on empirical evidence something you wouldn't understand because its deals with the actual world) and there are no such things as yell cows that bring people back to life.

Are you denying that Islam set up a religious backed political structure of monarchies with divine rule? Because if you are, then you're just factually wrong. Some of the kingdoms still exist TODAY.

And it isn't out of context you can read the whole chapter and it's crystal clear what the positions are. Women are inferior to men, non believers deserve to tortured in Hell, you can murder your enemies and then there is just all the really pointless stuff and mentally retard things like believing in magical events and creatures and invisible places you travel to after surviving your own death as an invisible creature yourself.

yeah do give me the number of the guy who will argue this bullshit for you. You'd have to because you can't defend it. Getting stuck in a scripture battle is a nightmare for a religious person because it's simply not defend-able. Go watch that video above. We have clear documented history of over thousand years showing exactly what the Bible and Quran meant when it said the things it did based on the practices those societies did and laws they made. I swear you're the same as Christians. The bible never means what it says it just says what you mean.

Islam borrowed a creation story from a different religion. It is pure nonsense. Culture context doesn't matter because god is omnipotent and all knowing. It ought to be just a tab above culture. I don't need some apologist to make excuses for it to me. I have history. I can also read it myself and just laugh at it. These stories in the Bible or the Quran are just fucking ridiculous. And one comes from the other. Thus not really disagreeing with any of it other than demoting Jesus to a prophet level and adding Mohammad. It's practically the same religion with all the same problems.

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The Qur'an is a recitation in Arabic that was revealed over the span of 23 years, often in response to things that were actually happening at the time. If you think you can take what someone wrote in english as an interpretation, and that you're somehow an expert suddenly, then you're obviously wrong and anyone who is knowledgeable on the subject sees that clearly. However, most people aren't knowledgeable on the subject so people get away with their ignorant claims and people just believe them.

I said it's out of context because that's the truth. I'm urging you to talk to the Sheikh because someone who knows Arabic and has studied this religion longer than I've been alive is more qualified to address these issues for you off the top of his head.

You keep talking about a magical cow... I tried to tell you before, if something in the Qur'an sounds unbelievable in regards to science or whatever reality you perceive, perhaps that's what makes it a miracle. It's not supposed to be something that happens everyday or even has ever happened outside of that given instance.

The Qur'an has similarities to Christianity and Judaism because they share the same Prophets who preached the same religion of monotheism. Islam just believes the past scriptures have been corrupted by man, while the Qur'an has been preserved, which is historically apparent.

The example I gave you above about the $10 vs $2 shows you have to know the context of something in order to understand it. You obviously don't understand it. Islam is not what "muslim countries" do, it's what the Prophet Muhammad pbuh taught along with the Qur'an, and it takes an incredibly intelligent and well-studied person to even be qualified to derive rulings from the two. So for you to read a few things in english and then think you're qualified is just ridiculous. It's not 1+1 it's more like calculus when you get into the jurisprudence of Islam. As for the basics, there's One God and nothing besides God is worthy of worship, God sent Prophets, Muhammad pbuh was a Prophet, and the Qur'an was his revelation. If you don't see that the Qur'an is a miracle, then that's on you, but personally I don't believe any except God could possibly have come up with that and the Qur'an challenges anyone to make a chapter similar, which has never happened 1400 years later.

Anyways, to you your religion and to me mine... and yes, you do follow some sort of conjecture, desire-based 'religion' whether it's atheism or science or whatever. We all follow something, we all worship something(s). If you really do want to talk to the Sheikh though, I'll let him know and then message you his number, God-willing.

The concepts in the quran are not so complicated. If they can't be translated into English by people dedicated enough to write a translated book of it, then why do you think it will be better to listen to a Sheik? You don't have to study verses for a life time to understand their meaning. If you do, then none of you understand the quran until you've studied it a lifetime, which would suggest you believe it for reasons completely external to your understanding of the material. If you believe it because you believe in Allah, then that's circular reasoning, and it means communicating with you about it is pointless.



Ever wondered why these things only seemed to happen in the past? Maybe because they don't happen? Or because someone interpreted it that way? It seems more rational that it was intended to be metaphor, but either way, if your religious book is going to metaphorically speak about magical animals, or if someone just misinterpreted an event that way, and people believe it literally, then what else is being mistaken for literal truth? There's nothing wrong with metaphors being in religious books. Humans communicate and understand things in metaphors all the time. The problem is when people take them literally.



Not to mention that the quran also demotes jesus quite drastically compared to his rank in christianity. This puts the 2 religions in great contrast.



No it is not like calculus. Calculus is still 1+1, just with more methods. Or better yet, it's 1+1=2 still. But believing any religion that I've read about appears to require you to be ok with 1 + 1 = -14906.23495. Simple precepts do not require a lifetime of study. Calculus also doesn't require a lifetime of study, but that isn't my point. If someone says women shouldn't have the same options as men, it doesn't take a lifetime to understand why. It just takes a lifetime for a decent person to justify it somehow to believe it's right.

And on another note, you do realize that most of religious followers (targets I'd like to say) during the time of the quran were pretty much uneducated and unexposed philosophically to the levels people are today? The conflict with accepting it is much much greater today because unless someone just believes it, there's nothing to convince you to believe it. On another note, maybe the reason you guys trying to argue it have such a poor reception on sites like this is that the people here are even more educated and exposed philosophically than the majority. I'm not saying you can't be educated and a philosopher and believe in the quran. But I think there's a good reason it's rare for educated, philosophical people to convert to it.



Atheism is about not having religion. That is why it is a-theism. Without theism. Without religion. If you call a person an atheist and religious in the same sentence, you are abusing the language, and why does one do such a thing? To protect from your own insecurities? Following the pack on this ignorant argument about atheism being a religion? Or just some other unacceptable antagonizing nonsense? You can argue about me and my sensibilities all you want, but can you please, please try not to abuse the language? If people said "I'm am not religious" would you still say "You follow your not religious religion?"

I still find it strange that muslims target atheists on this board. It's like you have no other target. Every atheist I know in person was religious growing up. When you go from being religious to atheist, it's generally because you logically disproved the ideas that justify every religion. A rational person realize that a religion could still be true even if the religious book that governs it was full of crap, so that isn't the stuff that makes people atheist - it's just stuff we use to point out to you that your book is full of nonsense on top of anything else. So it's not like, ok I disproved christianity for myself, so now I'm wide open for conversion by muslims. What I'm getting at is, you can't bring belief, faith, and circular reasoning back into the equation and expect the type of person I'm talking about to convert to Islam. No matter how much you antagonistically abuse the language and antagonistically try to equate science and atheism to being religions, you just can't make these people believers until they get lobotomized.

I can't help but see it as a major display of insecurity when religious people need to tell everyone they are religious, even if they don't believe the same religion. Just get over it man. Not everyone is religious. Believing that the earth is spherical isn't a religion. Believing anything that has nothing to do with god, isn't a religion. Religion is about believing god. You guys want to separate believing in god and religion, and make it sound like your belief in god is completely separate from religion. Take this into consideration; if you say yes to all these questions, you may have reality problems:

1) You believe in god and the quran is not a factor.
2) You believe in the god described in the quran.
3) Your belief in the quran is justified by your belief in god.
4) Your belief in god is justified by the miracle of the quran.
5) Others should believe in your god because of the miracle of the quran.

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"The state breaks everything and then blames freedom.
The state destroys everything and then blames those who interact voluntarily for that destruction."
-- Stefan Molyneux

I haven't seen atheists being attacked with anywhere near the same level of ferocity and maligning of intellect, reasoning ability and awareness of reality as atheists do to those of us who believe in God.

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Tim, I didn't say christians and jews don't do it. The topic is Islam and the majority of anti-atheist discussion on this site is from muslims. Now though, I'll say that I have never had any jews try to convert me to anything and way more christians than muslims. Maybe it's just due to my personal exposure, but converting people doesn't seem to be a big jewish plan.

It's human nature to defends ones position, period. That has zero value in the argument about atheism being a religion, and I don't see how trying to use it in the argument is anything but non sequitur. People who are atheist and somehow manage to fit into the category you've pointed out which is "defense of ones position as if it is a religion", has no value in the argument either.

If I say it's wrong to kill babies, it doesn't mean I subscribe to a religion by defending it. If I say being tortured is wrong, it doesn't mean I am religious by defending it.

So you could reply and say, "I didn't say they were religious, I said they defend it like it's a religion," but what is the point? That they are religious minded, or that they follow it like a religion, or what? I disagree. But more importantly, I don't damn all Christians, Muslims, Jews, and whoever, for the actions of ALL of the people that have ever even claimed to be in that category. It's retarded. Instead, if you don't keep the most general association of a category about people, then you're doing a lot of people injustice. And a major difference here is, I'm speaking directly about a religious text, and religious precepts. You can point directly to what applies to people in this category. The most general category of muslims is pretty clear isn't it? What do you point to do define atheists? Youtube comments? Or the most general definition of atheism, which is, without theism.

Here's another nice little example.
People keep saying "they are not true muslims." Yeah well, they're still people who believe in Allah and follow parts of the quran. And I can argue that most muslims do not exactly follow the quran -- so who is a true muslim? Is the only thing that defines a true muslims whatever some Sheiks pick and choose to be valid parts of the quran? Or just murder maybe? So why don't I just lump the super true muslims together with the non true muslims who are ok with killing and not following the quran as closely? ... Because it's wrong. I expect the same logic and treatment in return.

_________________
Is your view of the world in sync with what you 'know' about the world?

"The state breaks everything and then blames freedom.
The state destroys everything and then blames those who interact voluntarily for that destruction."
-- Stefan Molyneux

I don't accept the judgment of my arguments against the believers on this forum as maligning of intellect, maligning of reasoning ability, or maligning of awareness of reality. i.e. I don't believe I have spoken falsely. If you feel otherwise, I would be most interested in hearing your explanation. I'm not concerned wit the ferocious bit, but you should check out talk origins and some atheist forums for attacks from believers if you want to see something to compare to the ferocity on this board. Or even religious boards where atheists and other believers of other religions have posted.

If someone reasons in a circle, his or her perception of reality is distorted.

If I tell someone they are reasoning in a circle, and they can't explain how they are not... well that kind of speaks for itself. I can explain how I don't reason in a circle. It's really easy. If you believe in A because because B says to believe in A, and you believe in B because A says to believe in B, you're using circular logic, reasoning, belief, whatever. Circular logic can be used to believe in anything. And if you're using a method to rationalize something that allows you to rationalize anything at all, then perhaps what you've rationalized with it isn't so rational.

_________________
Is your view of the world in sync with what you 'know' about the world?

"The state breaks everything and then blames freedom.
The state destroys everything and then blames those who interact voluntarily for that destruction."
-- Stefan Molyneux

Partly true and partly false.

Satan is from among the Jinn. it is difficult to believe in any religion without believing in Satan.

However, belief in the Jinn is not one of the 6 branches of faith, i.e. 1) Belief in God, 2) Belief in His Books (Psalms, Torah, Gospels, Qur'an), 3) Belief in His Prophets, 4) Belief in the Angels, 5) Belief in the Day of Judgment and 6) Belief in predestination.