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Anti-NeoconsRys2sense |
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Nomad
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Post subject:  Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:17 am |
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Joined: Sep 9th, 2005
Posts: 96
Location: Manhattan
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I don't know that "jealousy" is the motive.... I'm not a socialist in the traditional sense but speaking for myself, I find it sickening to see the executive aristocracy in this country flitting around in outfits that cost enough to feed entire Third World families for a year.
A point commonly missed in these discussions is the fact that these people's exhorbitant wealth doesn't appear from nowhere. Traditionally, the workers produce the wealth that makes the rich rich. The West has merely outsourced much of its proletariat to the Third World. The staggering luxury enjoyed by the Western nations is made possible by the abject poverty of most of the world. You can't have one without the other...for us to be rich, they must be poor. If anybody thinks that's fair, I hope their children are starving peasants someday.
_________________ planet over property
community over competition
well-being over wealth
cooperation over control
 
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Nomad
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:24 am |
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Joined: Sep 9th, 2005
Posts: 96
Location: Manhattan
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The primary fault of socialism was it's failure to meet the needs of the individual. It identified the common good with the State and relied upon the people's allegience to the State. Officially, it assumed the individual benefits when the State benefits, but I'm not sure how much most socialists really believed that.
The primary fault of capitalism is it's failure to meet the needs of the collective. It relies upon individuals acting in what they percieve to be their best interests and assumes the whole will benefit.
The trick is to get what's good for the individual and the common good to overlap as much as possible. We need to create situations where people can act for the collective good and recieve benefits themselves that they can actually see. I think that would have to involve some sort of localism, which I'm very much in favor of.
_________________ planet over property
community over competition
well-being over wealth
cooperation over control
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Ry
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:25 am |
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Joined: Jun 27th, 2005
Posts: 31524
Location: Japan
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well I know a lot of socialist who eat out of trash cans and they basically want ice cream in the mail, that is they think people should get something for nothing.
The uber rich I mean the real top 1% got their fortunes from banking... check this out http://www.propagandamatrix.com/multimedia/Money_Masters_Tape1_Part1_all.wmv
for real you HAVE GOT to watch this. This would make Derrick Jensen cream his pants.
get part to at www.rys2sense.com video button. _________________ This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-deathcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
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Gyps
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Post subject: Re: introducing myself... Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:23 pm |
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Joined: Sep 12th, 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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Baroness wrote: i'm not really going to get involved with the above discussion yet, i woud like to see how things work around here first...
myself, i am what i guess you would call a lunatic. People have called me Anarchic, Communist, and a left-wing nut. I believe that all people are divine, and that one should be judged only on what one makes of themself. I think that if humanity was left to sort itself out, after the initial freak out of 30-40 years, those who were left would come up with some frighteningly sophisticated government, but that it wouldn't be worth the lives cost. I believe that a democracy is supposed to be what the majority of people want, no matter what. I think that the American government has eaten itself with the aid of Christianity. And I think it needs to stop.
wow...i want to be a lunatic too!
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~that which is to shed light must endure burning~ victor frank
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Gyps
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:47 pm |
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Joined: Sep 12th, 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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arsenicxfailed wrote: Iconoclast wrote: Dilapidated Nation wrote: sodomy
not really, but i can't say i agree with your point of view.
Whats your rationale, if you don't mind me asking? Simple. People are not equal, nor should they be. i very much agree with his point of view. people have both differences and similarities, but all should be treated equally in regard to things such as legal issues, freedom, and opportunity. after this abilities and physical traits and thought vary, but there's room for and value in all and all abilities should be recognized and celebrated and focused properly to take advantage of all talents and all skills so that all can contribute.
what there is not room for is denying any person the basic equality. what there is not room for is judging someone as inferior or bad or wrong simply and solely because they differ from you, whether in physical appearance or gender or thought or mental ability. and what there is not room for is to intentionally harming or disrespecting any living being.
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~that which is to shed light must endure burning~ victor frank
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Gyps
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:55 pm |
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Joined: Sep 12th, 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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Ry wrote: well I know a lot of socialist who eat out of trash cans and they basically want ice cream in the mail, that is they think people should get something for nothing.
getting something for nothing just makes no sense. there's a huge difference between that and collective ownership and contribution. doesn't vanilla socialism (ha!) include a "starter kit" and then always fall apart when people want reward commiserate with contribution, which is where it either grows into capitalism or heads toward communism?
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~that which is to shed light must endure burning~ victor frank
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Gyps
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:01 pm |
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Joined: Sep 12th, 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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Fat Pat wrote: The value of an individual, while not only is it a subjective definition, is near impossible to track even if you get an aggreed-upon standard for measuring someone's value. Seriously, if you consider it a value or a virtue to be good at doing back flips then a lot of us are highly invaluable beings. But even regardless of what the agreed-upon standard is that determines someone's value, the value is at least going to be measured in the realm of how we can augment our environment to achieve a desired outcome. Think about how many BILLIONS of possibilities are involved in that measurement. Augmenting your environment can be as easy as sneezing or as hard as lifting a car over your head. Value (and for that matter equality of individuals measured by that value) is so subjective and impossible to measure that it's best to just find a way in which everyone can at least survive.
Trying to equal people out's ridiculous. If you've got a government, it's crucial that you take away systems that specifically devalue certain demographics, but you can't build up a huge government in effort to equal people out. It's like building a mansion for some ants even though they'd be more content in the pile of dirt you paved over to make the mansion.
ahh that'll teach me to read everything in a thread before posting. i still do believe that everyone has value although these values cannot necessarily be measured against other values. we tend to compare things. that may be part of the problem. it's not easy to determine someone's value because we tend to judge against our own or what we personally think or are striving for. there' room in every society for an acrobat just as there's something for everyone to do. maybe the way we compete in school and later in the workplace just isn't the right way. maybe we need to shift our paradigms to recognize abilities and appreciate them. not easy but doable. very few are totally worthless...they just have to find what they are good at and enjoy and do that. and we ought not to belittle anyone who contributes based on that.
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~that which is to shed light must endure burning~ victor frank
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Gyps
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:18 pm |
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Joined: Sep 12th, 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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Ry wrote: as a first step, i would like to know what you guys think about a confederacy vs a federation. It seems to me like de-centralization is a step away from large government which no one here is a fan of and yet a conferderation does not have the trappings of anarchy human nature wise or pramatically either.
i don't have a lot of background or experience with confederations, and of course the US is a federation, but if an analogy can be made between a country and a corporation, then i'd say it a confederation can work and has many, many positive benefits (faster decisions, closer connections, less bureaucracy, more accountability closer to the issues, and a more homogenous culture, which some consider beneficial). but then they realize that they might benefit (save money, use fewer people, inject fresh ideas, that kind of thing) from centralizing some of it's services. i guess this is where it becomes a federation. and then after a while it becomes cumbersome to deal with all that and they decide to split again. and it all seems to go round and round and back and forth. maybe what we need is to split apart and gain strength and then come back together and mix it up again? a floating federal confederation. either way conflict will occur, either the states against the federation or the confederations against each other.
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~that which is to shed light must endure burning~ victor frank
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