Anti-Neocons

I have a bit of a dillema here.

I have spent quite a while thinking about Political beliefs and have found myself always drawn to the same conclusion; there is no way to prevent tyrany no matter what political system one falls under, furthermore, there is no governmental structure which will not slowly shift closer to Fascism or other forms of Totalitarian abuse.

Let me give some examples,

We all know the histories to communism, if not in full, perhaps an abridged version. It always starts out as a campaign for the working class (or at least is made to look that way), but after the communist party takes power over the country a dictator always seems to appear, abusing and oppressing the working class which it once supported. Anyone remember Tianaman Square? (Sorry for the spelling)

But furthermore, I feel quite disturbed by my findings about the truly drakonian realities of Democracy.

Democracy, in theory, is a form of government in which the people the rulers of their own country, placing votes on important matters in order to show their government what they want and need, in turn the government (also composed of the average citizens) gives everyone what they need.

It sounds nice, clean, rather pretty.

In truth Democracy does not show the needs and wants of the people, it shows the needs and the wants of the majority. In America the majority is the NeoConservative (taken a look at the red/blue political map lately?). Our country is not based on doing what is right for the whole, it is based on what is pleasant for the ruling class. America is being ruled by a wide, but definitive group which shows no support for the citizens which do not agree, which in many cases are actually hurt by the NeoCon's decisions.

What is worse, we in America are not living in a democracy to start with, America is a republic, which means that the heirarchy of power throws the Non NeoCon citizens further down the ladder as well as every other citizen of this country. The citizens make no decicions, the government makes them all, sometimes taking our views into consideration, but more likely than not, only taking their own wants into consideration.

America is a subtle Totalitarian state, much as Israel is.

How can we stop worldwide Fascism and the egotistical actions of the NeoCon population if we as a minority group have no REAL power?

Tell me, is Democracy really the best governmental style? If not, what is?

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"Whatever Your God Can Do We Can Do Better"

I still think that democracy is the best form of government. Ours just need some huge changes to it. We need to:

1. get better leaders.
2. end Israel's influence in our government.
3. make war-profiteering by congress people and president's administration illegal.
4. have some major lobby-reform so congress will care more about the people than corporations.
5. have more politically educated and active people.

Then our government would be a whole lot better.

Also, a majority of the people have to either stop watching the mainstream media or at least be very skeptical of it in order for them to have any perspective on the issues.

So basically what's wrong with the government is not that we have a democracy, it's that it doesn't represent the people and even if it did, the majority of voters are idiots.

The ideal way would be to have a lot of small governments, each with autonomous rule. The most successful would end up being fascist/monarchic/oligarchic states, because let's face it, Joe Stupid has the leadership quality of a baked potato. The more the better, though, because nobody really needs some asshole changing their culture to be more like the ones controlling them.

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

1) The people vote for the leaders. How can you change the result of democracy without changing the cause?

2) Which also means putting an end to Joe Stupid's reign of idiocy; he allows it, after all.

3) So you are saying something should be done even if Joe Stupid says otherwise? Sounds.... authoritarian... to me

4) But lobbying is done to give Senator Douchebag money that ultimately will help him get reelected. Guess who reelects him? Joe Stupid!

5) Why don't we just scratch this off and place it with something entirely more plausible and less fantastic, and put the FEW SMART into government?

If your average moron can't understand that the media is hype on their own resources, which isn't a hard task, then do you even trust them to understand the important issues and not the distractory hype?

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

I tend to agree with Richie, I'd put most of my emphasis on reforming the lobbying system, that's the biggest problem IMO, and I'd have term limits for congressmen. I don't like the fact that states will continuously re-elect a senator or rep despite gross misconduct simply because they get lots of pork for their state. That should be fixed. Also, the media needs to be returned to their jobs, which corporations have corrupted. All the country's media is owned by 4 mega-corps. We have to actually adhere to the spirit & letter of the anti-monopoly and anti-trust laws, both for inter-business affairs and for the media. De-centralize. And make it absolutely verboten for government or business to influence the media in even appearance, let alone policy and content. Also, we should make the govt. and large businesses bound by law to give the media complete access, no more of this "national security" bullshit. There obviously has to be some limited areas where a clear natl security interest is involved, but that's quite different from the present, where any damn thing is called natl security...Jeff Gannon tapes in the purple freakin' bedroom of the white house is called natl security sensitive...bullshit.
If Cheney has a meeting at the white house with the leaders of the energy companies, when congress asks for the minutes or tapes of the meeting and for the attendees to testify under oath, if anybody says "we can't do that due to natl security interests" they should be body-slammed and frog-marched to Angola La. work farm and put to work in the fields the NEXT MORNING. I got your "natl security" right here, bitch.
Those steps would make a HUGE improvement. But I'm not as cynical about govt's as Nebel, I think some govt's work very well (as long as the people stay vigilant), such as the socialist/free mkt countries like France and Sweden.

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You can't climb above the statue of liberty's toes.

Did you read what I wrote, or are you satisfied with your dumbass opinion?

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

Iconoclast,
Though democracy may be in my opinion a rather flawed system of government I can't say that a Fascist one would be much better.
That just gives the Joe Stupid majority (being the most blatantly formidable and most likely ruling class) more power to destroy.
Somehow I think that Fascism, though lacking many of democracy's many flaws, is an even worse idea.

Can you name any countries (minus Israel) which are Fascist and still remain in today's world?

The leaders of all major countries seem to enjoy f*cking over fascists.

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"Whatever Your God Can Do We Can Do Better"

I would agree with Nebel on this one, at this moment in my life i have quite a cynical view on governments.

No matter what country, it is always out for it self. That is keeping the majority happy, the ruling class.

The US is in a different position than a lot of countries, being a super power and the most powerful country in the world.

Seems like its not the leaders what is wrong with our country, its the SYSTEM itself that has been spoiled for too long.

If the system was any true to its real values, Bush would not have lasted this long..

Bush seems to me is only an image, the one taking blame for the actual people behind the decisions.

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Indication of alienation. The clearest sign that two people hold alienated views is that each says ironic things to the other, but neither of the two feels the other's irony.

Since when has authoritarianism been about appealing to the masses?
It is a much more exclusive window of government. You don't give Joe Stupid a say with authoritarianism. In any proper government Joe Stupid will live and die a peasant.

Israel isn't fascist. Israel, like America, is a liberal democracy.

They fuck over fascism because it is a threat to the status-quo. While there are no fascist states today, you can look at the ancient civilizations that were successful and fascistic.

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

iconoclast wrote:


Sure, I read your post, I just wasn't responding to it Einstein. Firstly, you can take your inflated self-important arrogance and shove it up your blown-out bunghole...OK?
Now that that's out of the way, I don't consider the average voter "Joe Stupid", and I don't like a city-state setup, it never worked in Italy, and it won't work in modern times.
A strong central govt can govern fairly and do the bidding of the people, it can keep the excesses of state govt's in check and protect the minority from the majority, a central tenet of our constitution, which is a pretty good document. Also, a central government is strong enough to provide social programs so that the less advantaged and disadvantaged and those going thru rough times can be taken care of and given a helping hand. A small governing body is much less capable and history has shown, much less willing to do that. The reason the Fed govt had to take over public schooling is because the states utterly failed. And don't no one say the public school system is a failure. There are damn good public schools and the ones that lag behind do so because of lack of funding, which is a hallmark of republican leadership. The voucher system is nothing but an attack on public schools to put money in religious schools pockets.

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You can't climb above the statue of liberty's toes.

I say our Constitutional Republic is

the best form of government but it well only work if the

people that make up the country tend to the needs

of education, free press and vigilance over their

servants in the government.

MAJORITY RULE
DEMOCRACY
_____________
X (12 Bankers)
Majority
Government
Public Servants
Case & Statute Law
Corporations
Individual

CONSTITUTIONAL
REPUBLIC
_____________
God
Individual
Constitution
Government
Public Servants
Statute Law
Corporations

********************************************* ******* *****************************************

The above chart is the "pecking" order for the two different types of government.


It runs from top to bottom and top is what comes first and bottom comes in last in importance...


Look where you (the individual) are in a Democracy and then where you are in a Republic...


Personally, I like the Constitutional Republic form of government and guess what ? That's what we are supposed to be !


Then WHY do the majority of our so-called "representatives" (public servants) in government, whether it be Federal, State, County, or City, keep calling it a Democracy ?


Because that is what "they" want you to believe.


"They" don't want you to know that YOU

hold power over them.

"They" don't want you to know that God's Law and the Constitution of the united states of America comes before "their" case & statute laws.


And because the majority of the people

(past,present,and unfortunately future)

have swallowed this garbage,

"they" have and will continue to get away with it.


If YOU don't get off your butt NOW and get involved, we are ALL doomed to remain in a Democracy---

Soon to be a Dictatorship (if it ain't already).

And I will be really P.O'ed. Please help me and other fellow Patriots return this country back to a Constitutional Republic....


Call your "Reps" and ask them if they are in favor of a Democracy?

If they say yes,

come November, vote the traitors out of office...

That's right, traitors...

For no where in the Pledge of Allegiance or the Constitution

of the united states of America does it mention being a

Democracy, but it DOES mention Republic...........


Let's all start living the truth and get our heads out of the

sand and DO something !!!!!!!!!


http://www.angelfire.com/nv/cceducate/demvsrep.html

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"The reason why jews are so well off is because they all help each other
you get loans, doctors, jobs, jewish lenders list never ends
this is why jews are so successful,
they use each other as stepping stones"

First of all, all I can say is "LOL"

I'll firstly attend to your "schools aren't crap" argument. You're totally wrong. I went to one of the best in my state, as I lived in the very same military town that Bush was flown into on 9/11-- obviously it gets a lot more government funds than normal. My school was crap. Well, maybe not crap, but mediocre. But compared to high quality, mediocre is crap.

Most people shouldn't be in any form of public schooling anyways. They simply drag it down for people like me.

The city state setup did work in the past very well; many city states have existed longer in time period than our relatively short 220 years of democracy.

You like to think that the average person isn't stupid, but then you might have a low standard of intelligence.

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

iconoclast wrote:


First you say your school was the "best in the state", then that it was "crap". Get your story straight. You don't know what kind of funding it got, unless you're parents were school board treasurers. You also have nothing to compare it to, if you did not go to several private as well as public schools during both jr and high school. I did btw. I also went to a foreign school. So what is "high quality"?



I thought I told you to shove your arrogance and baseless hubris up your ass. School didn't teach you to obey your superiors, I see.



They worked? Worked how? Stop talking out of your ass. Don't blame your public school if you didn't pay attention in history class. The history teacher I had in public school was incredible, he had a love and enthusiasm for history that infected every class he taught. It wasn't enough to simply read the textbook we were given, we read library books on history all because our teacher fired us up.
I went to a Catholic school where we learned rote memorization of useless, boring facts and dates. It had a high drop out and failure rate, and religious indoctrination along with conservative brainwashing.
Some of the best schools in the country are public schools, and the only source for the meme that public schools suck is the rightwing propagandists. Also, the source for the crap about govt run businesses and institutions not being as good as private is rightwing rove-shit. The "rugged entrepreneur individualist" line is horseshit too. If it weren't for govt, 95% of all businesses including the business giants throughout our history would never have existed. Govt was their daddy. There's no such thing as the self-made millionaire. It's Norquistian horseshit.




Well you certainly haven't breached it, that's for fucking SURE.

RANGER: I would say that our govt is a democratic-republic. A hybrid. Alot of political scientists agree. The founding fathers were in favor of a strong central fed govt, even Hamilton. Alot of folks like to use the Federalist papers as an example of a endorsement of strong precedent of states rights over fed (in contrast to Jefferson's philosophy), but I read them and I have to disagree.
Madison recognized the advantages of a strong fed govt and it's right there in the text.

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You can't climb above the statue of liberty's toes.

It is obvious that you're a socialist moron, and it really isn't worth my time to "debate" with you. When you twist my words and play little games as you did in the first paragraph, it really shows that I'm dealing with a parasite here.

By the way, I suggest you don't breed. After all, it takes away your individuality, as a unique and beautiful individual.

Leave the politics to men, hun. I mean, just look at the ancient civilizations and most of the modern era ---- predominately run by men!

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

Hey, you may be pissed, but don't blame me....you stuck your nose in the arena and acted like you not only had a clue what you were talking about but were hot shit. You got your nose bitten and now you whine and say you're taking the ball home. No one forced you to participate, crybaby.
Damn right I'm a socialist, you must be one of those capitalists. Fine, I won't pout and say I won't debate you, I'll just have you with some fava beans and chianti every time you try to pontificate and act like a jerk.

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You can't climb above the statue of liberty's toes.

I didn't get "bitten", you're just an idiot with an "opinion", a rather socially acceptable one at that. One that Bush agrees with (as that matters, but it shows how it helps the system out).

I must be a capitalist? You, the genius here, is unaware of what a "False Dilemma" falacy is? I'm surprised!

I don't really want to bother "debating" with you because your, well, a moron. You're coming out with completely bizzare and speculatory "you don't know how much your school got" when in fact I have known it to be millions a year.

And, unlike you, I am in college. I can compare the education and can see that college is more efficient, even though it too is still held back by the incapabilities of other people. For example, I was in physics today and was the first or second one done with the test that I found to be far too easy. I usually daydreamed during class and I only skimmed through the chapters (but did all my homework, all with correct solutions).

In the past schools were much more exclusive, hence, there was less people to cater too and less standards to lower.

I guess I will "debate" with you a little bit so nobody reads your post and gets confused. To say that the founding fathers were "for a larger central government" is moronic, because the founding fathers were not homogenous in belief.

Jefferson remains as the best founding father, if a little to optimistic for my tastes. I'd think he would come to his senses if he could witness the spectacle today.

You're truly an idiot if you think that the city-state design can't work. Other systems work, a city state also works. Ancient Greece was composed mostly of city states, for example. From them, we get a lot of science, arts, etc. As well as the Ancient Babylon, etc...

Also note that the Greeks were not egalitarian. They held slaves.

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

Wow, you're hip. I wish I could be a cool as you. Unfortunately, I'm not very cool since my daddy made me shut my myspace down

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

blaming others wont do anything

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Indication of alienation. The clearest sign that two people hold alienated views is that each says ironic things to the other, but neither of the two feels the other's irony.

I noticed you don't seem to hostile to democracy, which is odd, considering your Nietzschean stance. Nietzsche was highly, highly opposed to democracy in any form.

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for lunch.


liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote.

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Iconoclast wrote:

Gosh. I'm impressed. How'd you manage that? Govt grants?

The best you can do is to call me a moron and an idiot. Ever hear of transference? Like I said, don't blame me for your shortcomings, I'm just pointing them out. With satisfaction.
So you're a physics genius huh? You do seem to be full of yourself. But I'll bet you got the question wrong about the grand unified theory.



Oh yeah, we sure don't want people here getting "confused".

You say the schools in the past were more exclusive and that was better because the great unwashed, lower-genetic, phrenetically-challenged masses just dragged everyone down? Sounds like a crapitalist to me. A selfish, greedy, piglet. I'll bet you ain't in a fraternity, you'd get your ass beat every night.
Here you are............


And here with the only ppl that'll hang with you......


You need to stop acting like you know American history. You know shit.
You're a poseur. Yeah, the founding fathers weren't "homogeneous" in belief, that's why their signatures appear at the bottom of America's beliefs.
They didn't BELIEVE in that stuff right? They just wanted to piss off the asshole, inbred, loopy King. Right.
All the city-states in the ancient world were constantly at each others throats, they were conquered numerous times all through history, and had no security or infrastructure, no set, fair legal system and no ability to advance the masses by widespread education beyond simple apprenticeships. There wasn't enough leisure time for the arts to develop, music and theater were pastimes of the rich...exclusively. Italy never amounted to shit until it became a country with a central govt.. Before that the vacuum was filled by the Church, and we all know how that worked out.
You're cool hand Luke out in the prison yard at 2am, digging that hole and fillin' it back in. You should quit while you're still able to generate pity.

This is where you are .......


Demockery wrote:


It seems like anarchy is much worse, and let's face it, America has advanced over the last hundred and 60 years, we have the capacity under a democracy to self-correct. It takes some time, it's slower than most of us would like, but eventually we throw off slavery, we increase tolerance, condemn bigotry and racism, regulate business, install safety nets for the less fortunate, improve working conditions. Sometimes the pendulum swings backward, like with this administration, but IMO we tend to take one step back and then 2 steps ahead. It's slow, but it beats any alternative. Socialist-democracy, like Europe. They've tried it for a long time and it works.
If I read you right, you're also saying as long as we remain armed we remain in ultimate control, but I don't agree.
That may have been true in the before-times, but with the modern military we have, the night-vision, non-lethal weapons, armor, choppers, drones, electronic surveillance, communications/sattellites, and sheer firepower, a populace with grenades, IED's and rifles isn't going to do more than be a major irritant. Of course, you could say that is a victory in itself, just surviving and continuing resistance, but ultimately the control and power will be with the govt as long as it controls the generals and troops. I don't think our military and officers would go along with total, brutal martial law. I could be wrong, but having been in the military for alot of years I don't see it as likely.

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You can't climb above the statue of liberty's toes.

The form of government really doesn"t matter its the culture that matters. Democracies can be evil like the US and Israel or they can be peaceful like Northern Europe.

Its the corporatism and their ownership over the press that damn us all.

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END THE GOD DAMN WARS
This site is against war, Zionism, (or any other form of racism), profiteering, and all forms of government corruption, mass media deception, and cover ups. This is not a site to flail on about space aliens-illuminati-masonic-dealcult-jewish-catholic-lizard-lucifarian-jesuit-queen-barvarian-etc bull hockey. Take that junk somewhere else.
My Twitter
"It doesn't matter who we are underneath. It is what we do that defines us." Batman

"If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it or see it.
Would Israel still blame it on Iran?"-Ry Dawson

Google version of War by Deception (Magic Bunnies)
Pass HR 1207 and S604 audit the Fed



ry ryan dawson author politics political antineocon anti-neocon antineocons anti-neocons raising the volume of peace - news the media is paid not to tell you how they blep you

"Compromise."




You're right, minus the "no security". part. Nothing lasts forever, and who cares if there were constant scuffles? There were legal systems, though nothing moronically egalitarian. Widespread education for the masses is the last thing needed, when members of the slave caste such as yourself start using words to make yourself sound articulate when discussing "democracy" and "equality".



The arts didn't develop? Are you fucking insane?

http://library.thinkquest.org/J002388/a ... onder.html

Also, for example, music was popular in ancient Sumer.



You mean when the slaves started revolting and talking about "equality" and "their fair share"?

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

Does anyone else get the impression that this sounds like neoconservative talk?

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." ~ Jonathan Swift

I agree with Ry's statement.

iconoclast wrote:


Zeig heil.




The arts didn't develop. Are you totally fucking ignorant? Who do you think the artists worked for?
Your link doesn't have any relevance to the issue. What are you smoking?
As for Sumer, your little tidbit doesn't have any relevance either. Making rebuttals with points that have no relevance seems to be a common tactic of the rubbernecks.



Yup. Happened in France too. Russia, America...."demand" is a better word for it than "talked". Jimmy Hoffa said "If you want anything in this country you have to take it". He was right of course. Unions were the best thing to have happened to this country, and meeting force with force was the only way for them to have made headway in a rigged game. The worker has no advocate in dealing with management, only strength in numbers.



No answer huh?
You truly are stoned.

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You can't climb above the statue of liberty's toes.